Navigating Amazon’s Legal Maze with ESQgo

ExpertCPG Commerce Podcast
ExpertCPG Commerce Podcast
Navigating Amazon's Legal Maze with ESQgo
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ExpertCPG Commerce Podcast: Episode 9

In this episode, we sit down with Mario Simonyan from ESQgo, an Amazon-centric law firm, to uncover how brands can resolve common legal challenges on Amazon. Discover actionable insights on account reinstatements, IP issues, and strategic growth. If you’re looking to optimize your Amazon strategy, don’t miss this conversation!

Want to see how we can help your brand? For a Free ExpertCPG Amazon Audit, to get valuable insights, strategy tips, actionable ways to boost your Amazon sales, and ways to increase your brand’s visibility and growth, visit https://go.expertcpg.com/amazon-audit to sign up and begin your journey to success.

 

Podcast Video

 

About our Guest

 

MARIO SIMONYAN

ESQgo – CEO & Founder

 

Bio: Mario Simonyan is a leader in both e-commerce and intellectual property law. He started by creating and selling two successful Amazon brands, which gave him a deep understanding of online business. When he founded ESQgo®, he brought this experience with him, combining it with his legal skills to help other entrepreneurs. Mario has received multiple awards, including Super Lawyers Rising Stars (2020-2022), and has been featured in Bloomberg and LexisNexis for his expertise. He also wrote a best-selling book, “On the Corner of IP and Amazon,” sharing his knowledge about intellectual property and online businesses. As a licensed attorney in California and Washington, Mario continues to lead ESQgo®, helping it stay ahead in the global marketplace. His firm has been recognized as one of the fastest-growing law firms in the country by Law Firm 500, and his legal acumen, combined with entrepreneurial insight, ensures that ESQgo® provides cutting-edge solutions for modern businesses.

Contact Information:

intake@esqgo.com

https://www.linkedin.com/company/esqgo/

 www.esqgo.com

 

Podcast Video Transcript

Ryan Flynn: [00:00:00] Hello. Welcome to another episode of the expert CPG commerce podcast. My name is Ryan Flynn, the founder and CEO of expert CPG commerce, where we help brands reach more customers on Amazon and beyond. And today I’m super excited to welcome Mario Simonian to the program from ESCO. ESCO is an Amazon centric law firm.

So what that means is they help brands and sellers of all types resolving issues they have with Amazon through legal means. So whether it be account reinstatements, IP issues, and all the likes, ESCO helps them. And Mario has a great conversation, a great backstory too on how he got started with that. And if you’re a brand on Amazon, you’re not quite sure if you’re doing everything you could be on the platform as you’re growing your own company and your own brand and getting into more sales channels and developing new products.

And Amazon just kind of sitting there, you don’t know if you’re doing everything you could be on the platform, but we want to actually show you everything you could be doing in the platform. So we actually offer a complimentary audit where you can just go to expertcpg. com slash audit, [00:01:00] fill in some information there.

We’ll review it and get back to you. And if you qualify, we’ll actually take a deep dive into your Amazon account and actually show you what we could be doing in the platform, not just tell you, but show you what you can be doing in the platform. So again, expertcpg. com slash audit and see if you qualify.

All right, let’s go ahead and jump into the conversation with Mario.

 So Mario, welcome to the program. Thanks for joining us. 

Mario Simonyan: Thank you so much, Ryan, for having me on. 

Ryan Flynn: Yeah yeah got a lot to talk about today. I know, some different topics we’re going to cover in terms of, what brands should watch for and some interesting stories you have of things you helped brands uncover or solve with Amazon and in the past, but I first love to tell us a little about yourself and the company and how you kind of got started.

Mario Simonyan: So, uh, name’s Mario Simonian. I’m the founder of ESCO. Now, if we rewind back to law school, that’s when they started selling on Amazon, right? I think it was in my second year of law school when everyone was like, And law school was going out getting jobs. I was like, I really don’t want to get a job. And I’ve never [00:02:00] really had I guess I’ve had jobs. My preference has always been to, you know, have my own stuff. And I remember I came across a YouTube video from Daniel Morak, and he was talking about how you buy things from China, put your brand on it, and then sell it on Amazon. It’s like this can’t be that easy, right? So I placed an order, and at the time, my first order was, This three in one avocado slicer, dicer, pitter. I brought in about a thousand unitsand I sold those out. I was like, this is super cool.So, and then I just added more and more products, uh, you know, kitchenware, home goods, and then soon thereafter I had a brand.

So fast forward, I’m out of law school. I’ve passed a bar and I’ve got two brands now. And at that point I was like, okay, it’s maybe time for me to make that transition into law. And I didn’t know what area to really go into. And I just looked at the intersection of, I know Amazon PL, I know Amazon, and I know the law, right?

So it’s like, [00:03:00] why not just start a law firm? And that was really the birth of ESCO. and I remember. when I sold the brands,I was doing all this sort of research about whether there’s a market or not for a law firm dedicated to Amazon sellers. And I remember everything I looked at, Ryan, every sort of experiment and research I did, it came back as, nope, stay away.

And I was like, you know what, let’s just try it. Let’s see what happens. And here we are. In June, it’ll be our sixth year.

Ryan Flynn: wow, that’s awesome. What a story too. I usually when you 

Mario Simonyan: Yeah, 

Ryan Flynn: said, those warning signs of there’s no market it’s stay away. But I you were onto something for sure. And I think, you said six years ago, that puts a what? 2018. That was really when I think, yeah, I can think of it like the height or close to, I mean, just Amazon, just complexity and problems really started raised with Amazon.

They’re really going after people as the marketplace got bigger and bigger on certain things. So it can get very thorny out there. Great story, great start. And tell me like fast forward to now, when, and now, so what do all you guys do? What do you cover as far as a law firm is concerned when it comes to e-commerce.

Yeah. 

Mario Simonyan: Sure, [00:04:00] so So So 99% of our clients are either Amazon sellers or walmart.com sellers And we help with anything from the basic account reinstatement, erase and reinstatement all the way up to Amazon lost or destroyed my inventory. Let’s get a re reimbursement or Amazon is holding my funds. All the way to arbitration on the Amazon front.

And then with respect to IP, we’ll go ahead and help sellers or brand owners register their trademark and copyright, but also enforce their IP. And that’s something new we started to do last year, where we’ll take those cases on contingency. And help out these brands, because before what would happen is clients would come to us, right?

And they’ll say, I’ve got this trademark, or I’ve got this copyright, or I’ve got this patent. And I’ve got about a hundred infringers. And our response, just like any other attorney’s response was, how much money do you have? Because if you don’t have. At least $750.000 maybe closer to $1.000.000 [00:05:00] We’re not going to be taking this case.

Cause that’s usually how much it takes to litigate these cases. And you don’t even know if you’re going to get any money back.So what? we did is we sort offlipped that on its head and said, you know what? We’ll go ahead and evaluate your case. If you’ve got a strong enough case, we’ll take that on contingency. Whatever we’re able to get from the infringers as royalty, then we’ll go ahead and split that with you. So it’s a completely, no risk. Solution to these brands. And that’s been super successful for us and for the brands.

Ryan Flynn: And it’s a natural evolution, like you said, of evolving and do services of how you serve these different brands. Would you say people come to you? I think I know the answer I want to hear from you proactively and before there’s an issue or is it always when? They’re calling you panicking and I’ve got X, Y, Z happened to my Amazon account or Amazon’s holding this much money. What do you typically see?

Mario Simonyan: Yeah. Good question. So people usually come to us when they do have an issue, right? For example, you’re not going to come to us unless your account’s reinstated. right. So that’s on that front. But, on the more proactive side, [00:06:00] those we try to also focus on, and those are people that want to get their trademarks or copyrights registered, or they want to set out a plan to help protect their IP, so they don’t have infringers coming on board and ruining the marketplace.

So we see a little bit of both, but I would say most of it, Ryan, is going to be those emergencies coming in and saying, my business is on fire, help me out. 

Ryan Flynn: Yeah. Yeah. I know. I think you said before, it’s not a question of if, but when, right? Like, anyone’s been an Amazon for a number of years is typically running into some kind of issue. But Amazon, whether it be a product suspension, account, suspension, or issues with payments and inventory.

 You see a lot behind the scenes of Amazon, right? And, just from hearing people’s different cases. Talk about like their systems on, what you’ve just seen from your guys aside on, how these things happen, and how, hard it can be to resolve

Ryan Flynn: them just the normal means. 

Mario Simonyan: So I, think any small business owner looks at Amazon and says, well,they’ve got a million plus employees. they’re a trillion dollar company. So then you’ve got their [00:07:00] SOPs in place, they’ve got their processes in place, they’ve got all their people trained. So everything is going to work very smoothly, right?

And the reality is so far removed from that. They’ve got a million plus

employees.

not very many of them are well trained. Their SOPs, I don’t think are always followed, even their processes, their bots, their algorithms that they have don’t always function the way that they’re intended to function, right?

And that’s why we’ll get people that are suspended for things that they shouldn’t have been suspended. So I think that was the main thing that I realized when I moved from being a seller to actually working, on helping sellers before Amazon and before the AAA arbitration proceedings is.

Amazon doesn’t have all their ducks in a row, right? And that’s why they have to spend so much money on attorneys.

Ryan Flynn: Yeah. I’m sure you get people to come to you at all stages, of whether I’ve been suspended and I’ve been trying to resolve for the past six months, or, it just happened, [00:08:00] last night I got an email when I woke up this morning is it more complex to kind of unwind the situations where more time has passed and there’s been more support cases open at Amazon

internally, just kind of muddying the waters? 

Mario Simonyan: So I always suggest if you know what you’re doing, and I think there’s a very small percentage of Amazon sellers that know what they’re doing with respect to the appealing process, right? If you know what you’re doing, fine. Try whatever you can. But the super majority of them, I don’t think are well versed in helping themselves get reinstated, right?

We work with this on a daily basis. I don’t think there’s any seller that could say they work as on as many cases as we do, because this is what we do.I always suggest that, hey, I’d rather if you’re not 100 percent confident in, You knowing what you’re doing, come to us. Let usfrom the first step all the way to the last step.

But those small percentage of sellers that actually know what they’re doing, and they’ve got 5, 10, [00:09:00] 15 years of experience, fine, go ahead and try it and then bring it to us in the, in a that you’re unable to get it resolved. And, something else that we’ve recently started and I’ll talk to you about.

Is that our success guarantee? So for some time now, we’ve always been sort ofthe last resort for sellers. I think our Googler reviews reflect that. If you go through that, people have come to us where they’ve tried other consultants, other law firms, and they’ve essentially given up until they get to us.

And we’re like, you know what? Obviously I can’t guarantee anything, but let’s give it a shot. So it’s like knowing that we’ve been able to resolve issues like that sort of has given us the confidence to always say, you know what, we believe that we’re the the best in the business. So it’s finally, it’s like, let’s just put our, our mouth is,if you come to us and we’re unable to resolve, or I should say, reinstate your Amazon account, your ASIN, Or your walmart. com account and you find someone else that can do it, we’ll go ahead and pay you back whatever money you paid us that just goes to show like, we, we [00:10:00] know how good we are.

So if we can’t do it, I don’t believe anyone can. I guess that’s the whole thing of what I do and what I find so fun with running this firm is our mission is to provide. These online entrepreneurs with creative yet logical legal solutions.

I think with IPX, which is the contingency IP, enforcement that I talk about with synthetic arbitration, which we’ve had for a while now and has been super successful and now this guarantee, I think that’s what really sets us apart. and going forward, we’ll look for more opportunities like that to really serve the online sellers.

Yeah.

Ryan Flynn: It’s always great to have guarantees. And obviously. It makes people feel that much more comfortable engaging with the firm. And talk to us about the other process. Because I think, when people are dealing with Amazon, whether it be, a brand that’s just getting on there or a brand that’s been on there for years, and they’ve got maybe even like in house counsel, and they’ve got the attorney they always use for everything. Talk to us about how Amazon’s different. Because it’s not just opening cases, [00:11:00] what you’re doing. You’re actually talking to their outside counsel. Is that

correct?

Mario Simonyan: Oh absolutely. so there’s a lot of clients that wehave that are,very large brands. And they have their army of attorneys, but when it comes to anything Amazon related, they’ll usually reach out to us because Amazon, we treat that as its own sovereign nation. And I think any attorney or sort of general counsel of a brand will soon realizes that.

And they’re like, you know what? This isn’t. What I’m used to, right? So it’s it’s a whole new world. So that’s the way they’ll reach out to us. But yeah, we’ve got several clients like that who can’t afford and do have an army of lawyers, but anything Amazon related, they’ll still come to us, right?

Just because the process is completely different and the process changes. And I’m sure you, you know,this too, Ryan It’s for the last six years, it may be, you know what, A plus B equals C, but then all of a sudden you realize, you know what, A plus B actually equals F. And I think unless you’re in the weeds every day, you’re unable to sort of catch something like that.

Ryan Flynn: Yeah. No, that’s [00:12:00] exactly right. Amazon always, it’s a, you’re playing in their sandbox, right? So they’re always changing the rules and you got to stay up on that and know what’s happening. You mentioned , a little bit ago, just about, there’s obviously other players that kind of serve these same similar needs, but talk to us about using like a law firm, like with attorneys such as yourself, versus maybe just like a standard consultant when it

comes

Resolving issues with

Amazon. Absolutely.

Mario Simonyan: So, so a couple of things. First, let me look at attorneys versus consultants, and then I’ll talk about our law firm versus other law firms. So as far as attorneys versus consultants, so by law, consultants can’t provide any legal advice. So this really comes out when we’re having IP issues or when the client has IP issues, intellectual property issues.

By law consultants are unable to look at two trademarks or sort of a mark and a registered trademark and say, yeah, I think you’re infringing or you’re not infringing because of this and this reason. So that’s actually considered unauthorized practice of law and the state can actually come after you.

Now, does that happen? No, not [00:13:00] really unless it’s something that’s wide scale, right? But that is,that is illegal.this long standing tradition that only attorneys can provide legal advice, right? So that’s one of the main differences.

Number two, I would say difference between consultants and attorneys is attorneys have an sort of a governing body and oversight committee. Think of it that way, which is the state bar. Each attorney is registered with at least one state. And that’s who they report to. So if any of our clients, for example, have any issues with us, they could go to the state bar, just like you could do it with any other attorney that you hire, right?

Now with consultants, you don’t have that. So I would say those are the two main things. The third one, if I were to add a third one, is Amazon sellers, even though your case may not ever get to arbitration before the AAA AAA is the American Arbitration Association, You still want someone with experience just so Amazon knows, okay, they’re represented by a law firm that hastaken us [00:14:00] Amazon before the AAA.

So those are three things that I think may really separates the law firms between consultants. Now, with respect to us at any law firm, Now, there’s law firms that have similar experience just like we do, right? But I think for anyone looking at hiring a law firm, I think you should look at, number one, do they have AAA, arbitration experience?

And are they really focused on Amazon law? Or is Amazon a small part of what they do? For example, they do divorce, they do bankruptcy, they do personal injury car accidents, but they also do Amazon, right? It’s like try to avoid something like that and try to go with someone that actually has, Amazon experience and focuses on because what we’ve seen in the last year or so is a lot of law.

firms sort ofadd that they do Amazon law.

It’s a small portion of what they do. We haven’t seen that same expertise and just Realistically looking at it, I’m just like, like we said, Amazon’s always changing. So unless [00:15:00] you’ve got a team that’s constantly working on those cases and constantly try to, as their ear to the ground, it’s very difficult to be kept abreast of all the changes.

Ryan Flynn: Yeah, you’re speaking my language there, Mario. We were under the same thing. It. Other agencies, right? As we talked a lot of brands and run up against other agencies and obviously there’ll be agencies that say, Hey, we’ll do help you with your Facebook and Instagram marketing and we’ll do your website and Shopify and Google and all that.

And Am and Amazon. And some do okay with it. But then, Amazon’s kind of this small sliver thing and it’s a big, it’s a whole nother animal. Like you said. It’s like a very complex ecosystem. We see out of the agency side as well. So definitely can sympathize with you there. When it comes to, look back, Amazon, the whole marketplace, a lot of the reason, as Amazon has been so successful as a company and growing the.

com is because of their marketplace, anybody can put anybody else’s products up there. So let’s talk about that from a few angles, right? There’s been this evolution on Amazon of different stages of what’s been popular on [00:16:00] Amazon, how those products have gotten out there. You talk a little bit about that and just how you’ve seen those evolutions, maybe where you see it going

too.

Mario Simonyan: Yeah. So I think back when I used to sell about 10, 12 years ago, I think it was a lot easier, meaning we could just bring in any quote unquote, me too product and it would sell 

right. 

If Ryan and 10 of his other friends all have brands selling pens that all look like this, I could probably bring in the same thing, maybe differentiate a little on color or something, and be okay.

Nowadays, I think it’s completely changed, right? On a few fronts. Number one, The private label side, I think you now need what I call private label 2. 0, where you need to have a strong brand or some sort of patent that really protects it and creates a moat around your brand or your product, but I think that’s where it’s headed.

Those Me Too products, I don’t think, work as well. Right now, and I think slowly they’ll deteriorate away with respect to drop shipping, Amazon and walmart.com both [00:17:00] have been very aggressive with stopping drop shippers. And I know that they’ve invested millions of dollars into that. So that’s drop shipping.

 I don’t think drop shipping is a future and I don’t think it ever was unless you’re doing it on Shopify, something like that. Fine. But if we’re talking about the Amazon and walmart world, I don’t think drop shipping has a future. With respect to wholesaling, I think wholesaling, we’re already seeing this on our front with clients coming in where the P the brands that were wholesaling their products are now stepping in because for example, if I’m a wholesaler again of this pen and I’ve been, I’ve been wholesaling it to you and I see Ryan’s buying a hundred thousand units from us a month. 

Ryan Flynn: yeah, it 

Mario Simonyan: And here on this other side, I’ve got revenue down. Can you look And what Ryan’s doing? And they come back and say, he’s selling on Amazon, right? Soon they’re going to come in and we’re going to, you know what? Thank you, Ryan, for creating all these listings. We may have given you permission to brand registry, but we’ll take that back, right?

Whether voluntarily or involuntarily, [00:18:00] because we’ve had cases like that too, where the person doesn’t want to give away brand registry rights. And that’s something we can do because the trademark owner is owned by though. The brand itself. So that’s what I see on the wholesale front. Now, wholesale, I don’t see a future in wholesaling, right?

Same thingonline arbitrage or just any sort of arbitrage. I think that’s going to go away too. And we’re seeing that now with Amazon requesting invoices and doing sort of these IPI interviews. So that’s what I’m saying. I think ultimately Amazon wants brands on there.

And in order for you to really compete with your brand, you need to have some sort of real moat around it. Again, IP trademark, real brand, or some sort of patent.

Ryan Flynn: Yeah. Yeah. We’ve seen the same thing over the last couple of years of work as far as brands taking it back from distributors and wholesalers, Amazon has been run amok with their products. And it’s been, again, they look at it as one angle of being successful. Hey, I’m selling this product either way.[00:19:00] 

I don’t have to mess with it. I just sell wholesale. But then all of a sudden it’s wait a second, I’m losing control of the brand. I’m losing control of price points. And it’s eroding away at maybe a kind of a brand equity, frankly, as well. Because so many customers now just turn to Amazon by default.

Most of the average Joe doesn’t know, who the seller is, they don’t really care. They just know, especially on mobile, where you can’t even see the seller, really, you don’t really pay attention to it as much. Maybe on desktop, it’ll get a little more, but like you just hit buy and it’s at your doorstep and a day or two.

Yeah, we see the same thing with brands. And let’s talk about that a little bit. A lot of brands have had to deal with. Third party sellers, right? And again, Amazon is the marketplace and a lot of the success of it has been because of that marketplace angle, but when it’s brands and then third party sellers competing, how does that, what can brands do to help, limit that?

I know it’s from a legal standpoint, can they at all? I know there’s some obvious things that Amazon, they can do, but I guess from your angle, what’s the best way for a brand to, control more of

that channel themselves as much as [00:20:00] possible. 

Mario Simonyan: Sure. So I think we, we need to bifurcate that issue into, are the unauthorized sellers located here in the United States? Or are they. Outside of the United States, if they’re outside of the United States, it’s easy. That’s something we could do with IPX. That’s our contingency, IP enforcement that we talked about, but where it gets more difficult is when they’re here inside of the United States, right?

There’s something called the first sale doctrine that says, once you sell a product, your rights to that brand, that trademark are extinguished. So if I buy this iPhone from Apple, I can do whatever I want with it. I could sell it for a dollar, I could break it, I could paint on it, I could have my kids draw on it, I could do whatever I want with And any time these brands approach these unauthorized sellers, that’s the first thing that these sellers will say is, Hey, First Sale Doctrine, get away from here. What they don’t recognize is that there’s an exception to the First Sale Doctrine. It’s called a material difference, right? And when material difference is, it says, if you’re going to be selling the same [00:21:00] product and I’m not the brand owner, I’m just another seller.

If I’m selling Apple phones, then the consumer should get the same bundle of benefits that it would get if it were to buy it from Apple directly. Or any of their authorized distributors, right? So this takes some legwork and sort of pre planning on the brand side, but there’s several factors that the courts have looked at that really, are these material differences.

For example, if my units have a battery that is not as strong or not as a same quality as Amazon, that could be considered material difference. If there’s any changes. In the packaging, so just alterations or modifications to the UPC or anything on the brand that could be considered material difference.

If the brand itself offers a pre sale or post sale support guarantee. And I can’t do that because it’s only authorized an offer by the brand that could be something else. So there’s about 12 different factors that we look at, but that’s one way that [00:22:00] we could approach these unauthorized sellers You’re not offering a pre sale, support service or a post sale support service.

So this would be considered material difference. Therefore you’re infringing on our client’s brand because now you’re deteriorating their brand, right? Think of it that way. So that’s one way that we can approach it. Now, is this a sort of silver bullet? Absolutely not. I think in our experience, what we’ve seen is about 75, 85 percent of the sellers will go away once they get a letter from a law firm saying.

This is an exception to the first sale doctrine and then explaining all that to them and it’s informing them how they are infringing, but there will be a small percentage that still stick around. And I understand them too, because they’ve invested all this money. They’re not going to go away so easily.

So at that point, it’s either communicating directly with them and saying, what is it you want? I’m going to make your life hell unless you go away. So do you want to really sell my product or do you want to go down the street and sell someone else’s product? Right? Thank you. Or it’s [00:23:00] communicating that to Amazon and saying, Amazon, here’s what’s going on, right?

This isn’t your traditional trademark, infringement, but it’s material difference. So getting Amazon involved or worst case scenario, suing. 

Ryan Flynn: Interesting. Yeah. It’s very 

fascinating. it’s not like a silver bullet. It’s not like it’s something that could be done right away, but it is a lengthier process.

Yeah. Like you said, if you can get rid of, you know, 75 percent of the time, they’re going to go away after a letter that could be a big win there. Because we see it again directly with some of the clients we work with that have just kind of these, these looser distribution channels, not by any of their own fault, but just as you grow as a brand and get into retail and get sell to distributors, the product just starts being available more of places and the gray market of where it can be purchased.

So yeah it’s as much as. Possible,

Mario Simonyan: obviously brands are trying to protect that. Right.Yeah, You actually bring up a great point because some of it isn’t always a legal solution, right? Some of it is just, hey, you’ve got some leaks or you’ve got some holes in your supply chain. We had a client who was selling over the counter [00:24:00] pharmaceuticals and it They learned that from CVS and Walgreens inventory was missing from there and winding up on Amazon.

So sometimes it’s just making sure that your supply chain is as tight as it can.

Ryan Flynn: Yeah. Obviously there’s Amazon programs out there. One of them being transparency, which can help with that. But yeah, we’ve seen that some success there and trying to limit resellers. But again, it’s not a silver bowl. Not just like some of the things you discussed there as well. I’m curious, you’ve done a lot of different work with a lot of companies and helping them.

What’s one of the success stories really sticks out to you as wow, we, it was a huge difference you made for that firm and. Or Amazon was really wrong in that case and yeah, talk to us about that, a

success You’re really proud

of 

Mario Simonyan: Yeah. So, there’s a few that, that sort of comes to mind. and it really sort of made an impression on me. One of them was it’s a vendor central seller and they. Amazon had lost or destroyed a couple, when I say a couple million, it’s really about 12 million [00:25:00] worth of inventory. So they tried working with a few other consultants and attorneys, and they were unable to get anything really resolved.

 and we were able to go to Amazon’s outside legal counsel. This is a law firm in Seattle that represents Amazon, and they got about 12 million back. So I thought that was a good way. We had another client similar to that Canada. Very similar situation. There was about 2 million or 1. 8. It was a Canadian dollar.

So I’m not sure how the conversion was, but it was like 1. 2from there, I think we have to look at the sort of the IP enforcement side and how well that’s worked. A few of our clients on that IP enforcement contingency side. There are small mom and pop shops that could never afford a legal service Like this, right?

like I said, it costs 750, 000 or more. And with this, we were able to put back in their pocket. Some of them about 250, 000. And I think the most we’ve done with one of our clients is about half a million dollars. That’s in their [00:26:00] pocket. and again,we’re still not done.

We’re

still working on that case just because it’s so widespread.

Ryan Flynn: I was going to say, you’re getting money back to their pocket. But it also, helping the brand. The other side of it is this, how much is it helping their brand? Because these people that are enforcing on

their products are gone hopefully.

Right. So that’s the big

Mario Simonyan: Yeah, exactly. Because they have to sign an agreement saying that they’re not going to infringe again. So it’s not that The only thing isn’t that they’re just paying us royalties. They have society agreements and that they’re not going to infringe again. And people usually don’t come back.

Ryan Flynn: Yeah. 

Mario Simonyan: what, what, 

once you take money from someone, it’s likely that they’re going to take that risk again.

Ryan Flynn: Yeah. Yeah. Putting your hand out of the dog that always bites. If it bites you once, you’re

probably not going to put your hand out again. So yeah. Yeah. I like it. 

Mario Simonyan: And you’re also not going to tell your

wife or your cousin or your friend to 

go try that out, right? 

Ryan Flynn: Yeah. Yeah. Go pet that dog. Yeah.

exactly. Looking ahead, Mario, Amazon’s always changing. The law is changing too. It’s, I’m not a lawyer, but it’s just, there’s always cases that are overturning precedent, maybe here or there.

[00:27:00] Anything you see looking ahead that’s, you’re noticing happening right now or you maybe see happening the next year or two? When it comes to regards to Amazon, maybe the

IP side of it. 

Mario Simonyan: So Amazon side. We’ve been seeing Amazon building these relationship with these luxury brands, right? We’ve seen alot of these larger brands build these relationship with Amazon. And it seems like, obviously I don’t have any proof, but what it seems like is Amazon then says, Oh, Ryan, you’re in charge of, for example, YSL or Gucci, why don’t you invest 10 million with us a month to advertise and we’ll take care of your unauthorized sellers.

So that’s sort of what we see. Again, there’s no way for me to prove it. And obviously Amazon will never admit something like that, but we do see in the last couple of months where a lot of these cologne and fragrance brands, their sellers, unauthorized sellers are randomly getting hit with IPI interviews and saying, let me see your invoices.

So we are seeing that and [00:28:00] then on the legal side, we’re seeing those brands also take action and actually sue people that are selling that are not on Amazon. So that’s one thing that we are seeing. 

I think we’ll see that continue with Amazon where Amazon really. Goes after these established luxury brands or just established brands.

So that’s why earlier I said, I don’t see the whole scene being very profitable or having any longevity. With respect to the law side, there’s no laws that the law changes a lot slower than Amazon and e commerce does, but there’s nothing that’s been. really relevant except for the strategiesthat were, employing with our IPX program. But other than that, I think we can’t, dismiss Timu and the marketplace in general, just e commerce in general, and the effect that they’ll have. Couple of weeks ago, they entered or they started offeringtheir platform to us sellers. and I like that. I like that there’s additional competition to Amazon now, Amazon has been [00:29:00] in an abusive relationship with really all sellers, right?

Cause that’s the only way you could really describe it is if they get to do whatever they want to you and you really can’t leave and go anywhere else, that’s an abusive relationship. so I’m hoping that things change for the long run. but in the meantime, we’ll still be here. When everything is working the way it’s supposed to, it’s a day that my law firm no longer needs to exist.

I’ll put it that way. 

Ryan Flynn: yeah. Well,

I don’t think that day gonna come around anytime soon. Maybe deal with the complexity that is selling on Amazon, Well, if Mara, this has been fascinating, just lots of a peek behind the curtain, really think for everybody to be able to see from your side how it is dealing with the Amazon, what the kind of things and obviously how brands can start protect themselves and maybe go after also some of these folks that are.

Infringing other patents and and their IP. This has been great. Where can folks find you

or find your company?

Mario Simonyan: Sure, so they could go to our website, esqgo. com. They could find us on Facebook, and also on Instagram.

Ryan Flynn: Awesome. All right, Mario. Thanks so much again. And thanks for coming [00:30:00] on. We appreciate it. 

Mario Simonyan: Absolutely, thank you so much, Ryan. 

Ryan Flynn: What a great conversation with Mario Simonian from ESCO, telling us all about, the Amazon from a legal standpoint and how brands can really resolve some of those issues when using a firm like his. So thanks Mario for joining us. And hopefully you got a lot out of that conversation as a listener and viewer of this program.

And if you did, we would love for you to just help spread the word about this. So please like us, subscribe, leave a comment, leave a review, whatever platform you’re listening or watching to this on, that’s how we help grow the audience and share it with a friend. we’d really appreciate it. All right.

We’ll see you next time on another episode of the expert CPG converse podcast.